/ Jimmy's Corner: Okay buddy, you got it! UPDATE

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 

Okay buddy, you got it! UPDATE

Dear reader, Patrick...
I have tried to find a link or an email to contact you but actually I found out that you left none. And as I insist on answering your claims in full, I had to post this now. Please leave a link or an email to you so that we can get to communicate and have a discussion about your "totally false" claims. Anyway, I will answer in brief all your claims in one post soon although I believe it will be of no use doing so. Yet being a believer in the importance of debate and dialogue among people, I will re-open the discussion once again so that you feel free to demonstrate your opinions and I have the chance to answer them.
With my best regards

Jimmy

UPDATE:
Please, Patrick, bring me quotes and lines from the Quran mentioning which chapter and what line you brought them form, because this open talking that you use can't help the discussion. Thanks alot.

JC: All of my statements were backed by links and citations to sources, so I am not sure what citations you are asking for. For example, I added several specific Quran quotes that you requested.

And I didn't even invoke the most infamous one:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Surat At-Tauba 9:29"

Ask yourself: Who was the real historical Muhammed? I came to conclusions by simply looking at the facts as reported by muslims sources. For example, there was a first biographer of Muhammed, ibn Ishaq, and you can read his biography on Muhammed here - http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sira/

In chapter 18, it reports on the battle that Muhammed made against one of the Jewish tribes of Medina, the Banu Qurayza.

"The apostle of Allah besieged the Qurayza for twenty?five days until they were distressed, and Allah struck fear into their hearts."

After they surrendered, this is what happened to them:

"The apostle of Allah imprisoned the Qurayza in Medina while trenches were dug in the market?place. Then he sent for the men and had their heads struck off so that they fell in the trenches. They were brought out in groups, and among them was Kab, the chief of the tribe. In number, they amounted to six or seven hundred, although some state it to have been eight or nine hundred. All were executed."

"The apostle of Allah selected one of the Jewish women, Ray­hana, for himself, and she remained with him as his slave until she died. He had suggested marriage to her, that she should wear the veil (to separate her from all other persons, as his wives did), but she replied, 'Rather allow me to remain thy slave; it will be more easy for me, and for thee.' "

Most of what I mentioned about Muhammed the man is simply repeating what muslim sources, the Sira, the Hadith, and Quran, say about him. There are many facts like this to piece together the whole fabric of Muhammed's life.

An author of a biography of Mohammed from the 1800s, William Muir, has another biography of Muhammed that is available online:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Muir/

His answer to the question of the character of Muhammed is given here:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Muir/Life4/chap37.htm

This interpretation is explained as follows here:
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/islam.htm
"Critics find many things to attack in Islam. Many suras of the Koran were composed before 622 AD, while Muhammad was still in Mecca. In general, those suras seem to be extremely peaceful, compassionate, considerate. In fact, historian Sir W Muir (in Life of Mahomet, 1864, four volumes, vol. 1, p. 503) said "In the Meccan period of his life there certainly can be traced no personal ends or unworthy motives . . . Mahomet was then nothing more than he professed to be, 'a simple Preacher and a Warner'; he was the despised and rejected prophet of a gainsaying people, having no ulterior object but their reformation. He may have mistaken the right means for effecting this end, but there is no sufficient reason for doubting that he used those means in good faith and with an honest purpose."

After he arrived in Medina, those suras seem to have a generally much harsher tone, often even mean-spirited and barbaric, as regarding non-believers. Muir continued the above citation "But the scene changes at Medina. There temporal power, aggrandisement, and self-gratification mingled rapidly with the grand object of the Prophet's life, and they were sought and attained by just the same instrumentality. Messages from heaven were freely brought down to justify political conduct, in precisely the same manner as to inculcate religious precept. Battles were fought, executions ordered, and territories annexed, under cover of the Almighty's sanction. Nay, even personal indulgences were not only excused but encouraged by the divine approval or command. A special license was produced, allowing the Prophet many wives; the affair with Mary the Coptic bond-maid was justified in a separate Sura; and the passion for the wife of his own adopted son and bosom friend was the subject of an inspired message in which the Prophet's scruples were rebuked by God, a divorce permitted, and marriage with the object of his unhallowed desires enjoined. . . . As the natural result, we trace from the period of Mahomet's arrival in Medina a marked and rapid declension in the system he inculcated. Intolerance quickly took the place of freedom; force, of persuasion. "

Muir later added "If Mohammed deviated from the path of his early years, that should cause no surprise; he was a man as much as, and in like manner as, his contemporaries, he was a member of a still half-savage society, deprived of any true culture, and guided solely by instincts and natural gifts which were decked out by badly understood and half-digested religious doctrines of Judaism and Christianity. Mohammed became thus the more easily corruptible when fortune in the end smiled upon him. . . . [In Medina], he offered very little resistance to the corrupting action of the new social position, more particularly in view of the fact that the first steps were accompanied by bewildering triumphs and by fatal sweetness of practically unlimited political power. . . . The deterioration of his moral character was a phenomenon supremely human, of which history provides not one but a thousand examples."

I have found much in reading Quran, Hadith, etc. to support this view of Muhammed. The "good" Surahs and "good" behavior of Muhammed that moderate Muslims speak of is always based on his statements and actions early in his career; the Surahs that they ignore (like infamous 9th Surah) when Muhammed was egging on fllowers to more Jihad to build his empire are ignored.

See also this view, that shows that Muhammed the human failed the test of temptation:
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/002968.html

What I say about Muhammed is nor original nor unique, just follow the links I give above and you will get the citations of biography, Hadith and Quran to justify/explain the view.

I believe that if you look into the incidents in Muhammed's life with an open mind, you might see similar things in him as I do. For example, the story of the killing of Asma bint Marwan: "When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her." - FROM THE SIRAT RASUL ALLAH, by Ibn Ishaq " She was a poettess of Medina that Muhammed wanted killed because she was mocking Muhammed. A follower fulfilled his wishes and murdered her.

(see also
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/dead_poets.htm)

One can claim it didn't happen, but this calls into question the similar accounts of all of Muhammed's life. Maybe the whole Quran was an invention made after Muhammed's life then? (Actually some scholars have proposed this, because of the strange fact that Quran is not even mentioned nore recorded for about 150 years after Muhammed's death - google Patricia Crone).

There is no reason to think this didn't happen, as it fits in the fabric of the rest of accounts of Muhammed's life. Namely, he ordered several other killings like it - killing mere critics and opponents, even unarmed.
To me, it is certainly an unjust and wrong act that no 'apostle of God' would commit. Yet a devout Muslim biographer reported it as an act of the 'apostle of God'.

It's an error of Islam to ascribe certain acts undertaken by Muhammed later in his career - murders, assassinations, enslavements, warring against other religions - as the 'will of God'. But then to disbelieve that you'd have to disbelieve that Muhammed's later revelations were not true. The edifice of Islam comes down once one recognized that not all of the Quran is the word of God/Allah.

Of course, I speak as a non-muslim, so it is easy to say. To me, Muhammed is just another human, with virtues and flaws; it's easy to see how he was corrupted by power just as other humans are wont to.

A link to my blog is http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com
You may be interested in this article:
http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com/2006/02/marwans-daughter-farce-of-islams-hurt.html

why always everyone wants to attack the Islam goes for this aya in Quran forgetting that it is for specific occassion
why don't read the Quranic veruses saying if Allah wants make us one nation ,it will be ,but the lord create us as different people to test us
I am just asking all those saying all these insense how come than that all those great churches and temples in the middle east are there if ISlam calls for killing those wh don't believe in Allah !!

What a great site
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